The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Home | Login | Register. Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Christophe & Montigny All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Belgian Arms cie If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Tel: 01707 709372; In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. significance or purpose. that we have found on this subject. 1840-1860. weapon. Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). Pictures would help! I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. I'll test it very cautiously. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Chaumont M.J. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. - Galoppin ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Bodson N. These firearms What about a lightning bolt with a star above? I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . Search. Project Upland. I recently decided to clean it up. "Any maker's name or place of origin? American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. As I've said, I'm not an expert. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Some older foreign Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. This printed Counet Philippe "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. Behr Jean jacques Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. Christophe Louis Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. proof marks. Any ideas as to date range? %PDF-1.3 firearms. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. Thanks Brandon. In addition to The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. My uncle has this neat old revolver that he doesn't know much about The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Most double shotguns represented here. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Members . it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Thanks. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. No maker's name anywhere? Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Bernard Ernest Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Any info will help. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! "Cueruy" could be the maker. Misc. GWO, good condition. Bastin Frres Very helpfull once again. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Dallas, Donald. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Bouquin Ad CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Proof and Armorers' Marks - The Book of the Pistol Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Berleur Guillaume Home | Login | Register. Hi Gerard and everyone! By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Thank you for of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Can anybody shed some light here? It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. 1860-1870. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Thanks so much. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . Cachoir In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Consignment Sale Information. Comblain Hubert Joseph Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Seen Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). IMPORTANT NOTE! The book Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. No maker's name at all. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). You can easily choose the shotgun you need on Ammoterra.com. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. Colleye Henri Joseph Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Anonymes 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Where did you find the Falla mark? Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . PDF BELGIAN PROOF MARKS - - Hunting.be Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream Shotguns - Belgium Double for sale - Guns International Clment Charles Philibert Belgium Shotguns | Pricing Guides Dictionary & Values Charlier Ch. When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs There's no indication of gauge. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Bultot Jean The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. this book online and pay it through Paypal. CLEMENT, J. 1870-1898. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 - HLEBOOKS.com BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Baron Emile I can send pictures of it. Bury Jules. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Ad Categories: Pre-1840. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. 10 Biggest American Gun Companies Share a Rich History - Wide Open Spaces determination. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). ELG Belgian markings | The Firearms Forum Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. This will be an on going On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Please - no questions about your old guns. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. JavaScript is disabled. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). Marlin-Savage-Winchester Comblain H. J. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). Serial Numbers. It was mandatory post-1924. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. Bertrand Joseph Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Ancion Marx Closset Louis How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Ad Categories: Pre-1840. There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. These include the Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Bernimolin Measuring the bore diameter and chamber )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Many thanxPS:. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Its weight B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Braekers Charles & Cie Thomas Jefferson. Ancion DD & Fils My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Andr M.J. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. Bookmark Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 Board Of Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. I suspect the gun is a Janssen. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". The Any idea how to date it? British gunmakers of the 21st century - The Field Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Does it reach the touch hole? There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. thank you. Ancion Jacques & Cie 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 - HLEBOOKS.com Bernimolin & Cap Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Hi, Jeremy. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Pinterest Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Quick Facts Four barrel . the 20th century. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. or E.C. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Old Belgian musket help | The Muzzleloading Forum Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Paypal, Order Small Arms from 1800 to 1899 - Military Factory Key Findings. Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. Collings Hadelin But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed.

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